Letters
LETTERS
SAME OLD TALE
I was so curious about the new Harley-Davidson Electra-Glide I went to a dealer to take a look. Yes, I Bernard M. Dwivbit actually mounted my humble little Honda and set forth to dwell among the leather jackets and side burns of this strange breed of riders. When I got there I found myself in the company of a lawyer and two school teachers who were, for all intents and purposes, practically as puny and pathetic as myself. These were nice people in keeping with the new image of cycling. Oh yeah, there was one guy in a leather jacket who looked at my machine and called me a punk but the dealer made him go back home for that, because it wasn’t in keeping with the new image of motorcycling.
When I told a couple of guys I couldn’t wait until CYCLE WORLD told the tale of this machine via one of your famous road tests, they said that I would never see such a test appear because you were anti-Harley and to forget it. I told them they were wrong. I told them that I would stake my reputation as the greatest C.F.A. in Brooklyn on the fact that they were wrong.
It’s been quite a while since CW even mentioned the Electra-Glide. Is it possible that you are judging this only American made machine by the few undesirables who ride them rather than its mechanical and engineering virtues? Are you really anti-Harley? Is my reputation as good as ruined?
BERNARD M. DWIVBIT Brooklyn, New York No, we are not anti-Harley, or anti-anyone else’s product for that matter. We tested the H-D FLH Duo-Glide in our January 1964 issue; the addition of electric starting does not, in our eyes, constitute a great enough change, or improvement, to qualify it for another test. Particularly in the light of how many truly worthy machines await our humble attentions. Instead, we offer this month a test of the Harley-Davidson Sportster CH. This is the third H-D our experiences have embraced; next on the list is the fascinating new Sprint Scrambler. Since you were not entirely incorrect in your prediction, perhaps your reputation will remain unscathed. Ed.
OZ
You have a mature magazine which is comparable, technically and editorially, with any magazine in the world, and it is far ahead in presentation, which, if nothing else, is good for public relations. May I concur with the Wizard of Oz; his description of one of your competitors was no caricature. Personally I would rather read advertisements than what Our Hero did thirty years ago.
I am dubious of your latest Technicalities column. How one man’s problems were solved would be of limited help to another. My problems have been entirely different. I would like to hear from anyone who has had success tuning a Norton Jubilee as my success has been very limited.
W. M. HYMAN 1115 Greene Ave., Westmount, Montreal 6 Quebec, Canada
JOB HUNTING
Perhaps you can help me contact a motorcycle dealer or agent who is short a qualified motorcycle mechanic. I would like to come on a contract basis to the United States due to my limited funds. If this were not possible my wife and I could pay our own way if there was a job guaranteed and accommodations could be arranged.
I am 22 years old, we have no children nor do we intend to for quite some time. I have seven years experience in motorcycle engineering, five years under apprenticeship. The firm I am currently employed with, and the one under which I served my apprenticeship, are BSA and Honda agents. I am conversant with most other makes of English machines and some Continental makes. I would be very grateful to you if you could help me. D. J. EVERETT 6 Jessie St., Petone, Wellington, New Zealand.
MYTHS DIE HARD
As fully expected, we have been swamped with letters from Vincent owners and lovers defending the black beast. We herewith print as many as we have space for, and excerpts from others, with appropriate comments, of course. None of this has changed our opinions, only strengthened them. Ed.
.. . My personal experience with two Vincents over 40,000 miles never suggested such problems. Better study some English road tests.
RANDY WILSON
Boylston, Mass.
Why? They didn’t ride the same Vincent we did. Ed.
... I owned a Vincent, the clutch did not slip, and it was a good road bikq, but not up to modern standards. It handled like a pig at low speeds, and was only fun to ride on very long trips, on good, smooth roads. The transmission could be speed shifted and never missed a gear. I feel my machine was better than most. I sold it because it rode hard, and because it handled bad in traffic, parts are expensive, and service almost non-existent, unless you are good at doing it yourself.
I feel that CYCLE WORLD has helped bring about the end of the big and best 500cc single cylinder models, such as the Eso, Enfield Fury, AJS 350 trials, BSA Gold Star, etc., I hope I am wrong.
GEORGE H. WILSON Millersburg, Ind.
You are, but please, one sin at a time! Ed.
. . . Holy smokes, that Vincent will never wear out! 137 mph @ 700 rpm, wow, that’s chuggin’.
ALAN ATWOOD
W. Lafayette, Indiana
... I was not disappointed in the Vincent test because you showed that it was not the cycle most people had it figured out to be.
DAVID BRADLEY
Crookston, Minn.
...In your February 1963 issue and in February 1965, articles appear about the Vincent motorcycle. However, one story seems to like these bikes, the later article is the reverse. Am I reading these two reports wrong?
LEON A. HUDSON, JR.
Brooklawn, NJ.
No. One was our opinion (Feb. ’65), the other was written by a contributor, Mr. Vaughn Greene, President of the Vincent Owner’s Club, who also wrote the Vincent Black Prince article in the February ’65 issue. Ed.
...You irreverent scribes, smashers of Vincent idolatry, stampers of sickle narcissism! What wild protestations these? Out with the old, in with the new ... a symptom of our current social revolution. Next you will cast we ancient leather-crotchers from the fold .. . anachronisms that we are!
I have never ridden a Lightning, much less on a race track, and consequently am in no position to take issue with you .. . BUT I WILL! My two Vinnies handle better (for touring) than most if not all, bikes I have tried. I’ll concede that I have made a few modifications to the rear damper and the clutch. I have dusted my elbows on many a choppy corner and found the old girls came around as if on proverbial rails. Other people who have forked hardware have agreed that this is so. As you have indicated, the stoppers are weak. To me, their unique advantage lies in the equalization of stress under braking. The front brake can be applied vigorously while cranked over and it is assured that this paragon of mechanical virtue will not deviate from its appointed task. The rear brake requires herculean application to slide the wheel... an advantage for we more nervous types.
The gearbox is rugged but shifts indifferently. It is satisfactory for touring and free of slip (for me) if the clutch centralizing springs are properly adjusted. I find its most serious disadvantages are: its weight, definitely not a quick bike; its sensitivity to ignition problems; the unusual knack required to kick it through; for me its chief advantages are: great tracking; abundant smooth torque; freedom from torsion; and, most importantly, the capacity to carry me long distances with far less fatigue than other marques I have tried. The bike is beautifully made and a sheer delight for we Peter Pans to disassemble.
As the female septegenarian remarked as she osculated the gluteal area of a bovine, “I guess there is just no accounting for taste.”
R. SINGER, M.D.
Manhasset, New York
. . . You have let me down. Your brutal attack on the Vincent Black Lightning is inexcusable. There must have been something wrong with the brakes on your test machine. It is like kicking an old man when he is down. I’ve found the brakes not as good as some, but hardly what could be termed as dangerous. The portion of the test covering the clutch and dampers I agreed on, but don’t you think you have over-done it a bit by saying the suspension felt as though it had a balljoint in the middle?
(Continued on page 28)
As far as the shudder and waggle when pulling hard in a turn, was it above 90 mph? If not, remember this machine is designed for high speed handling and this is where it handles best. At speed the Vincent handles like a dream; I feel safe and comfortable at speeds that leave the nerves twitching for a week on another machine. As of yet I’ve heard no one speak so blasphemously about Vincents as you. You guys are still OK and your magazine is the best; it’s true that all of us don’t see things in the same light and admittedly I am prejudiced. I seriously believe if you rode a Vincent for a while, at least two months, some of your article would be retracted.
JACK WEBB
Lansing, Michigan
We rode the Black Lightning extremely hard on Riverside Raceway, a very familiar course to our staff of riders. We also turned the machine over to one of the best road racers in the country who agreed completely with our opinions. Riverside is an extremely fast course, highest motorcycle averages running over 85 mph. Ed.
. .. incredible conclusions you draw require rebuttal. The Black Lightning was designed only for road racing, though it has almost never been used for this purpose. Its great strong point is that it is the only machine available with 85 hp (alcohol) and 380 pounds. It was designed primarily for sprints and speed records, to reflect glory on the road models.
AMA gas and fuel records, for lOOOcc unstreamlined, stand at 147 mph and 160 mph respectively. George Brown’s Vincent holds the world’s kilometer record, plus British national speed record at some 190 mph. These facts merit some respect. Handling is not up to Norton Featherbed standards, but cannot be called dangerous. The Vincent clutch does not slip unless it has oil on it. Period. Your report seems to indicate that no Vincent clutch has ever been known to grip properly. This is absurd on the face of it. Similarly, Vincent brakes, in normal condition, have always been highly regarded. They are quite capable of making the front tire shriek at 80 mph. One can only think something was wrong with those on your test bike.
No machine is perfect, but the Vincent was designed and produced to the highest engineering standards known at the time, standards normally reserved for aircraft, standards rarely encountered then or now in cycles. It was designed and produced by some of the greatest British mechanical engineers. It was, and is, the best motorcycle ever made. At no other time, before or since, has the general public been able to buy a production racing motorcycle with a performance of over 150 mph in standard trim.
(Continued on page 30)
WILLIAM R. HODDINOTT
Minneapolis, Minn.
.. . now that you have performed a valuable public service by revealing the “facts” about those “evil handling beasts” by “testing” ONE 1955 Black Lightning, I’m breathlessly awaiting further “tests” on other machines. For example, how about “testing” ONE 1956 BSA Gold Star, and perhaps ONE 1954 Ariel Square Four, or ONE 1953 Triumph Thunderbird, to name some? Such “tests” would guide us all in purchasing Ariels, BSAs, Triumphs, etc., IF any of these bikes didn’t score well with you.
It could be noted that you “wouldn’t be sorry in the least” if these companies went out of business. This could cause embarrassment, however, since these companies are still in business and buy advertising space. At any rate, fellows, don’t have the office girls do the testing next time, please do it yourselves.
G. LEWIS
Pocatello, Idaho
We interrupt the din to clarify a point or two. We ALWAYS test only ONE machine, new or old. A properly made example of a series product should reflect the care and attention to design and manufacturing of all, particularly if it is an example of a reputedly perfect product. We cannot possibly obtain great batches of any one machine to test; there is not time enough in the month to do so and continue to produce the magazine. What British magazines have to say about British products is a well-known source of amusement. Regarding our plans for future road tests of Classic machines, we are planning the soul searching of an Ariel Square Four. As with the Vincent, we will report our findings fully and accurately. We will not dignify your low accusation regarding advertisers with an answer. Ed.
... I am stunned by your opinions. How could you ride the most fabulous singletrack vehicle ever built and come up with your comments? I have owned Harleys, Indians, Nortons, BSAs and Vincents, and to date have never been on any motorcycle that ran as vibration free, had as good a set of brakes or handled as flawlessly as the series C Vincent.
I have owned a Black Shadow and a Rapide since 1956 and would not trade or sell them for any price. The most tragic day of my life was when I read that they were going out of business. In regard to handling and brakes, I have never found anything to criticize. I learned how to adjust my brakes and clutch when I first got it and it has never slipped to date. The last paragraph in your test is not the truth and I cannot for the life of me understand your motives. Maybe the Vincent legend is so out of this world that no bike could live up to your expectations. In any event I am pleased by the quality of CYCLE WORLD and the frankness of your comments and editorials and road tests... up until now. Best of luck in all your future efforts, but please do not test any more Vincents.
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EDWARD LESKA JR.
U.S. Air Force
Kincheloe AEB, Mich.
. . . I wish to register a protest, echoed no doubt, by every enthusiast in the country, against your shoddy treatment of the machine. Your commentary is studded with pithy remarks about “poor brakes,” “furiously slipping clutch” and “ball-joint suspension,” and assumes these to be inevitable features of every Vincent. This is not so, and is in marked contrast to your usual policy of explaining away objectionable features (e.g., certain AMC products’ clutch slipping and muffler shedding). A cynic might suggest as a reason for the fact that of all manufacturers, Harper is the least likely to advertise in CYCLE WORLD.
I have enclosed a copy of a road test in Motorcycle Mechanics (England). You will note the results of their brake tests and their comments on “hairline steering,” “positive clutch action,” and a “superb sports/touring machine” are also óf great interest. You, of all people, should realize that a single ten-year old example, however well cared for by a private owner, can hardly be represented as possessing all the virtues and short-comings of over 10,000 machines produced. Although CYCLE WORLD is an excellent and informative publication, it would be better still if the staff could contain some of their gleeful iconoclasm.
WILLIAM L. BALL
Ottawa, Canada
... Congratulations for being gutsy enough to print your real impressions of the highly overrated Vincent.. . the Vincent engine is undoubtedly one of the finest pieces of machinery that has ever been assembled. This magnificent mechanical gem was mounted in one of the worst frames that has ever been built. The designer must have been inspired while watching a pair of hedge shears in action. The peculiar triangulation of the rear frame had a side effect which was very bothersome and quite tiring; when the rear wheel went over a bump in the road, the rear of the seat did not stay level, nor did it raise slightly... it lowered! On the rebound, the exact opposite occurred... the seat raised! A study of the seat support system will bear this out. It was not unusual for a passenger to become actually seasick! It would have made a wonderful amusement park ride, but it is sort of out of place on a modern, high performance motorcycle.
Also, at high speed, they do behave exactly as your road test indicates, like a Greeves with a hinge in the middle. The front forks were very well suited to a stone wheeled Cro-Magnon caveman’s cart, but, alas, not to a modern two-wheeled vehicle. The 1949 Indian had a similar, but better, front suspension. I have a theory which may explain why this engine was mated to the frame; the Vincent Company must have sub-contracted the frame design to a Dutchman who had spent his life watching a crippled stork dodge bicycles in Amsterdam traffic.
... I suggest they priced themselves right out of the market, a lame excuse. If the Vincent had been equipped with a reasonably good suspension system, you can be sure it would be in production today. If they decide to build again, with a Norton type frame and a good clutch, then I will purchase another one.
FRANK E. MILLIS, SR.
Denver, Colorado
... Let me join the group who will surely accept the bait posed by your test of the Black Monster, I mean Black Lightning. First, most old-timers must admit they like reports on classic bikes, and when time permits, do one on the best Harley ever made... the 1938 ohv 61, my favorite anyway. . . . From his little shop in the New Jersey country Rod Coates, the original rider, dealer and importer of the Vincent, gained his first grey hairs. The writer was with BSA at the time, and used to spend a social time at Rod’s place, watching the boys doing some unofficial road testing of those Vincents. It was the only imported bike that could whip a big Harley, and all of us limey enthusiasts loved and admired it for that reason alone, even though most of us knew it was a plumber’s nightmare for service and about as reliable as a dollar watch.
(Continued on page 38)
Well, time whips by, and the Vincent is gone; we still dream, during rare bull sessions, about the wicked Vincents. And they were just that, as far as street bikes were concerned. If anyone doubts this statement try one on a cobble-stone road (are there anymore such surfaces?) during or after a brief shower. However, make this test when the streets are empty of car traffic, unless it’s suicide you plan. One reason there are so few live Vincent owners, in my opinion.
Keep up the classic road tests, we old timers love them. Let’s hope the new generation accepts them in the spirit in which they are written. Many of those ancient bombs were man-killers, and the Black Lightning was the big daddy of them all.
JACK MERCER
Triumph Corp.
Baltimore, Md.
. . . Now to the Lightning test; I have no doubt you will be besieged by howls of anguish by various enthusiasts. However, I liked the test. As you know, when you get too close to a subject you sometimes cannot view it objectively. It was refreshing to see a newcomer’s impressions. I do not think the test was entirely accurate though, in regards to what a Vincent should do!
I immediately spotted the cause of your primary criticism, namely the bad handling. The Lightning shown is equipped with Armstrong dampers which were used to replace the Vincent dampers on the series “D”. I think these dampers were a mistake. True, they did not leak, like the Vincent item, but they were too soft, and furthermore have no rebound damping. Also, there is an Armstrong front damper on the rear fork and it is entirely too soft for that position as you pointed out. Fortunately, the Koni Company of Holland have recently brought out dampers for the Vincent and installing them is a revelation. They are expensive, $45.00 the pair, but are the best in the world.
Regarding the brakes, the rear has always been weak, purposely; it was designed that way. On the front, if the latest AM-4 Ferodo racing linings were fitted, and the drums skimmed to ensure trueness, I am sure things would have been different. There should also be a front bridge plate to support the balance beam pivot bolt, since this item will bend under pressure. If these things had been attended to, and Pettiford rear springs fitted, the test would have been far different.
There is one way the clutch can be permanently fixed; by fitting a Triumph clutch! They are available from England for $75.00 for the conversion, complete (I’ve a Norton unit myself). In short, remember this machine was designed in 1948 and what was around then to compare it with?
VAUGHN GREENE
San Francisco, Calif.
Thank you for a lucid moment, Vaughn. We appreciate your suggestions, and accept them gratefully, with only one comment. We do not test motorcycles for what they can he MADE to do, hut rather, for what they CAN do. The Vincent was indeed a modern and progressive machine in 1948. In 1965 it fails to achieve several things many other machines, smaller in both capacity and cost, offer with no alterations. Ed.
. . . Really now! I’m surprised at you, making such ridiculous statements as you did. In all fairness you should have pointed out that the machine tested had been in storage for nine years and the tires are original. I just can’t conceive anyone with knowledge and experience you should have to be writing such things, making a road test of a machine in this state of condition and then stating that all models of the marque are bad. If all Vincents handled as badly as you say there would be no one alive to build this so-called legend you say there is.
Actually, it is more of a reputation, and no such reputation could be built on the machine you describe. I can state from experience that had I not been on a Vincent but on some other machine in some of the situations I have encountered I wouldn’t be here writing this letter. I believe that you can ask any Vincent rider and he will tell you the same thing. As the slogan goes, “ask the man who owns one.”
I would suggest you find a Black Shadow that is in top condition and make another road test to compare your findings. That is, if you can find someone who would trust his machine to you after the last test.
MARTY DICKERSON Thousand Oaks, Calif.
We hesitate to challenge the opinion of such a well-informed Vincent aficionado as Marty Dickerson, hut the had handling of our test machine cannot he laid to the old tires. They held air, and had tread on them, though the machine could not he thrown about violently enough to determine whether they had lost much traction. We cannot connect the significance of the old tires with bad brakes either, or a slipping clutch. Ed.
IF YOU STILL WANT ONE . . .
We are acting as the Executor and Trustee of the Estate of the late Mr. Ian D. Bain, and one of the assets of the Estate is a Vincent Black Knight motor cycle (LOOOcc).
We see from one of your recent magazines that you are one of the top periodicals for motor cycling in the United States, and we would enquire whether you think there is any possibility of finding a buyer for this motor cycle in the United States.
We should be obliged if you could let us have a reply at your earliest convenience as we are rather anxious to finalise the sale of this motor cycle. Thanking you in anticipation of your kind cooperation. G. BOULTER For Manager, Trustee Dept. Barclays Bank D.C.O. Roebuck Street P.O. Box 438 Bridgetown, Barbados West Indies •
